Dec 222011

(LSZPOS (LT2MOD last mod LT8K31=2011.12.22(Thu)pst2030) (LT2VER version 1.0) (LT2STA 100% complete 1st draft) (LT2NAM= Should this group be closed? And replaced with what? Else what to do? )

  1. (LWMROO=Anyone is welcome to comment here else comment on the Meetup thread for this)
  2. (LWMR7P= (my 1st event to RSVP YES to) contains 2 RSVP YES (the 2 persons mentioned here) plus the following relevant comments:

    Ubuntu Hour


    Panera Bread23592 Rockfield Boulevard, Lake Forest, CA (map)


    We meet every other week: see for future dates!

    • DestinyArchitect

      DestinyArchitect Looking at, since this group’s 1st meetup June 30th it appears “This Meetup repeats every 2 weeks on Thursday” (says the site) but has an average attendance of 1.46(=AVERAGE(2;3;1;2;2;1;2;1;1;1;1;1;1)) & is seriously declining (only 1 (the Event Host) for the past 6 mtgs so on was unlike to have happened at all). Therefore, for survival&growth of grp, I strongly ask u reduce the frequency to 1x per month,& if that shows not enough,less. Also:

      Posted 3 hours ago | Like | Delete
    • DestinyArchitect

      DestinyArchitectMeetup grps die with attendance records as prior (as seems most Meetup users (even4 career) wont RSVP YES if they dont see others going else at least a history of that.) So also for the survival&growth of this grp, I strongly rec’d location be set to ~”Visible only to members” (&on replace the location w/”See 4more”)as it notably helps increase RSVPs&commitment,as it did for us:see LT1MK6 in .

      Posted 3 hours ago | Like | Delete
    • DestinyArchitect

      DestinyArchitect ALERT: Should this group be closed? [I hope not!] And replaced with what? Else what to do? –if you RSVP YES here u may get surprised, as I was, to then get 1 RSVP Q saying “this meetup group is now closed” –not what I wanted to see for my first RSVP YES, and maybe others feel the same way, too. See the details at… and post your thoughts! Help –to save the group, or find something else as capable & featured as a Meetup group!

      Posted 2 hours ago | Like | Delete
    • (LWMRDK= contains the following relevant post:
      Posted Dec 22, 2011 1:28 PM

      Laguna Hills, CA
      Post #: 418
      Send an Email Post a Greeting

      Just joining the group today, pleased that it had been created, I read the “Read More about us” and to the upcoming event I RSVPed YES, to which got 2my surprise&disappointment the RSVP Q “Did you know that this meetup group is now closed and the latest information can be found at… ?”

      • No of course I did NOT know, as it’s not posted on std Meetup locations(on the event description nor on the grp’s “Read more about us”). Why wasn’t it posted here? A trick to get RSVPs?
      • Rather than that unpleasant surprise, please post in these standard locations (a link to a discussion on) the concerns & possibility & discussion of the group closing (not just the decision of it)&what to do. Indeed, I created this thread for that purpose.
      • Without these reasons, I’m not convinced it should close. What are the reasons & thinking? and kindly let members & those interested talk about what could be done & what they would like done.
      • As one of the longest Meetup members (since 2004) and Organizers of many groups (including last year’s… –until it’s creator wanted it back, so I gave it to him, and let it get deleted), and most recently the successful… (oldest & always largest Android community group in OC), plus author of a book on running Meetup groups, I should be able to shed some useful thoughts.

      Edited by DestinyArchitect on Dec 22, 2011 1:29 PM


    • Nathan Haines

      Nathan Haines I appreciate your feedback! Ubuntu Hour in Lake Forest started meeting a year before this Meetup group was created, and none of the regular attendees use Meetup. The Meetup group was started to see if it could attract more visitors but this did not succeed. Anouncements are posted on OCLUG’s mailing list and Planet Ubuntu, and therefroe I don’t want to force people to use Meetup or even to RSVP. The idea of Ubuntu Hour is to be accessible and remove barriers to learning about Ubuntu.

      Posted 2 hours ago | Like | Report as spam
    • Nathan Haines

      Nathan Haines Attendance averages from about 2 to 5 others (not including myself) and has been very quiet this past month but that’s not unusual for this time of year. I preentered the 2012 meeting dates as a courtesy to those who already use Meetup and I will continue to focus on other methods of advertising for Ubuntu Hour.

      Posted 2 hours ago | Like | Report as spam


  3. (LWMRF3=Reply to Nathan’s responses above:
    1. (LWMW2D=Nathan, thank you for this needed news on your Meetup group.)
    2. (LWMW3H=From it, it’s now clear to me the following needs to be immediately posted on every Meetup event here, quoting you with edits & cuts

      2011.12.22: Ubuntu Hour in Lake Forest started meeting [2010.06~, ]a year before this Meetup group was created,. The Meetup group was started to see if it could attract more visitors…  [Primarily ]Announcements are posted on OCLUG’s mailing list and Planet Ubuntu .. [Total meeting ]Attendance averages from about 2 to 5 others (not including myself) and has been very quiet this past month [December ]but that’s not unusual for this time of year. …I will continue to focus on other methods [beyond Meetup ]of advertising …

      PLUS, if you plan to close the group (which I’m NOT recommending yet if at all), kindly say so via say

      Due to ___, I plan to close this Meetup group but our meetings will continue & be announced on

      -agreed? As this would clear up all confusion from anyone first hearing from you via Meetup, as I did, so not knowing all this but needing to know.)

    3. (LWMW41=Regarding you writing “none of the regular attendees use Meetup.” (which I cut from the above suggested text).
      While I imagine you feel & react this way, actually that would appear to not be true, including:

      1. (LWMWER=The Meetup group organizers (you Nathan, and Juan) I would hope are regular attendees, and you’re obviously on Meetup.)
      2. Your member Bill is on Meetup, and his talk about your group yesterday at our OCAndroid meeting (which he helps lead) is how I learned of this group, and via your attendance history, he’s attended your group, and I know (as he is a leader on our group OCAndroid) that he would RSVP whenever he attended at least if RSVPs are required as they are on OCAndroid.)
      3. (LWMWF5=Likely me. If it weren’t for Meetup (see above, including seeing your group on Bill’s profile), I would not have known about you now and probably wouldn’t have found out about you and joined. Moreover, clearly I am a devout Meetup user (having not found a better replacement) and since you are so close to me and I’m increasingly involved in Ubuntu, it would be likely I would attend regularly.)
      4. (LWMWG0=And there could be more.)
      5. (LWMWGC=Including some people, possibly many people, using your Meetup site but don’t bother to join your group, and possibly not even Meetup, because your site is public. You may have people showing up to your meeting who are NOT Meetup members but ARE following your Meetup listings for your schedule. Think this doesn’t happen? Think again: That is exactly what happened to us, OCAndroid, before we smarted up! As you will read from my the story I referred you to above LT1MK6, Pete wasn’t a member of OCAndroid, nor even of Meetup, but was attending lots of Meetup events, we even had photos of him at meetings but no one really knew him, and he was also attending ~5 other Meetup groups, but never a member of even Meetup. Until, unknowing of all this bothered by folks who would show up but not RSVP, finally our group had the smarts to require “Venue only shown to members”. Well our meeting attendance didn’t reduce at all. Instead our membership & RSVPs shot up, including  Pete joined Meetup, and our group, plus 4 other Meetup groups (by doing this, we inadvertently helped 5 other Meetup groups as well), and  he started RSVPing YES at lot & early (thus getting our meetings even more attendees, seeing his, plus allowing the rest of us to really get to know him -no longer a random drifter, but one of our trusted members. Now most all our attendees know Pete!). Read the story!)


    4. (LWMWGP=Regarding your text I cut in my quote above, including “The Meetup group was started to see if it could attract more visitors but this did not succeed.” and “I don’t want to force people to use Meetup or even to RSVP. The idea of Ubuntu Hour is to be accessible and remove barriers to learning about Ubuntu.”.
      Don’t require “people to use Meetup or even to RSVP”?

      1. (LWMWH0=Yes, for at least one’s first instant of exposure, that will make the group “accessible and remove barriers to learning about” the topic -you are 100% right there.)
      2. (LWMWHG=But will it build the topic? What I have found, removing all bariers, at least the reasonable ones (as Meetup RSVPs, which vastly help record & plan meetings and help people get to know each other, while still protecting one’s exact identity) does indeed make things more accessible but also, in the long term, seems to do the reverse of what we want: delivers less comment & sustaining-interest in the topic. (And why?  The good ‘ol human truth: if you make it too easy, humans don’t take it seriously.)
        1. (LWMWHR=Pete’s story above is a great example of this.)
        2. (LWMWIR=But here’s a more significant one.
          1. (LWMWJ0=Orange County has 2 known Android community groups:
            1. (LWMWJA=, run by me, which requires Meetup RSVP YES to attend (plus IDing photos, though one can use any username so still preserving online privacy), indeed we also issue & have everyone attending wear a name-tag (typically using the back of a business card with the group name on it) and take exact attendance, plus take meeting notes which everyone can post to. We also found it wise to be on Meetup as it seems the majority of Android community groups (world-wide) are on Meetup.) In marked contrast
            2. (LWMWKJ=http://SoCalAndroid.Org (run by Jeffrey, whom I know well – we work together) and so far his group does very similar to what Ubuntu Hour has done: freely advertise the location and require no RSVP, and also have no user profiles (plus SoCalAndroid keeps 0 record of what happened at each meeting).)


          2. (LWMWL4=Well what’s the results?
            1. (LWMWLD=SoCalAndroid boasts an impressive email list of a little over 100 members, but practically no one shows. By itself, it’s meetings were just the Organizer plus 2 to 0 attendees, few repeat attendance except by the Organizer, and people routinely drifting in & out (at least 1/2 of attendance), who no one seemed to know. Plus seemingly never putting on a presentation; only members show up & hack & do whatever. Plus 1 leader who does 100% of the work.  Indeed it got so few attendees, they were so uncommitted & anonymous, that when I first learned about the group from the venue host, the venue host was considering dumping them (from using their venue).)
            2. (LWMWLR=OCAndroid has nearly 2x the members, but much more significant: it’s meeting attendance is typically 5 to 33, about 3x to 10x what SoCalAndroid gets. And except at the largest meetings, everyone knows everyone at the meetings, both in person & by photo-profile, kind of like the feeling of the bar “Cheers”.  Indeed it is so active it runs about 8 parallel Android tracks (each meeting at least monthly), and has about 8 leaders (and increasing: we just got 2 more this week) to run all this, certainly not just me. Plus we put Beginner-to-Intermediate Training sessions and presentations, even solicited just a few months ago by Amazon (a2z) to gather OC attendees for their new AppStore release and hire members. Indeed our venue host called OCAndroid in to spice up & boost SoCalAndroid attendance, and that indeed is what we’ve done: their meeting attendance has increased 3 to 5x since we came in to help.)
            3. (LWMWP4=Now is this just because OCAndroid requires RSVPs & profiles with quality bios & IDing photos (plus issue name tags and take attendance)? No, there’s a lot more, as well. But if you think that these things would hurt getting the technology out & boosting the community around us, especially in open-source where one might think users are used to coming & going with no login, think again: we a real local OC demonstration of the exact opposite, in contrast to SoCalAndroid which was skipping all this and getting dismal attendance & commitment.)




      3. (LWMWPJ=And is it the case that that software open-source is used to anonymous access (so therefore “requiring RSVP” would not be in the spirit). Well on the surface, yes.  But anyone serious about open-source must get a login to make commits to any project, and do you want the serious folks who want to contribute or the fly-by-nights who just want to take but never give back? And even in the case of Ubuntu, even in the case for ordinary users (non-coders), doesn’t everyone serious pretty much have to have a login or a login?? Indeed if don’t ask for commitment & involvement (as RSVP, plus ideally a photo profile) then lack of commitment & involvement are typically what one is going to get back: “Easy come, then easy go”.)
      4. (LWMXAJ=Well, especially since Android is also a leading-open source and it’s worked great (not negative but positive) for OCAndroid, yes
        I would recommend Ubunto-Hour (and any in-person community group) do what OCAndroid has done, else as many of these as possible, to build sustaining community & commitment & learning & payoff plus repeat-attendance:

          1. (LWMZGF=Allow every attendee & member to use a handle and not reveal his/her full or legal name unless truely required by the event (as a photo-ID guest list)
            (LWMZLG=Some tech groups, plus Facebook, don’t allow handles, which violates member’s privacy for no good reason I’ve ever heard.)
            (LWN1VK=see Real name policy abuse and
          2. (LWMY0X=Have every person attending wear a name tag with his/her name that maches the name of his/her online profile.)
          3. (LWMZRU=Keep published notes what happened at each event and allow any attendee to easily contribute to these.)
          4. (LWMZZ5=Except somtimes for events where it’s unreasonable for any person, from his/her attending, to know by name everyone in their group attending (say where every group attending is over say 50 people), then make it happen! Ideally for most attendees (attendees leave knowing everyone on their group), via:
            1. (LWMXP7=exclusively use event announcement system(s) which shows to the world else to all-members, every person who attended along with his/her web profile, and allows members to share notes, reviews, & pics of the event( is the most notable (excluding Facebok due to LWMZGF & more), though there are slowly increasing competitors.)
              (LWN0QH=If you know an event annoucement system better than, please tell me & the world! -but I haven’t for sure found any other system which has both Meetup’s mostly-complete features AND instant members & community.))
            2. (LWMXL4=Force RSVP (& control who can attend in advance, when that needed) by requring membership (and ideally RSVP YES) in order to see the event location.)
            3. (LWMXK4=Take & publish attendance of the event including the name/handle of every person showing or expected but but not showing
              (LWN05A=making it clear to members they will be noticed (by handle/name) if they show up not, showing their attendance is valued).)
            4. (LWMXFP=Especially when using such an annoucement system as LWMXP7 (where everyone can see who’s going & went),
              (LWMY3J=Require RSVP YES in order to attend)
              (LWMY30=If the system publishes this, require an IDing photo of every member-else-attendee.))





  4. (LT2HIS Document Additional History, in order

    1. (LWMQPU=2011.12.22pst13, I started posting this info in but in posting this reply, Meetup kept giving me spurious errors “Sorry, your message board post was flagged as looking a lot like SPAM”  so it was impossible post, plus good content best not to be entrusted on Meetup.)
    2. (LWMQYN=
      (so to have better storage for this info)
      (I created (this post )
      1. copying ((LT2MOD last mod LT8K31=2011.12.14(Wed)pst1423) (LT2VER version 0.51) (LT2STA 50% complete 1st draft) (LT2NAM=LW7RML=a website including any member’s info not relevant to it’s topic  ))
      2. then removing all that didn’t apply and correcting the rest
      3. then set its ID to LWMR0L a new one
      4. then moved all content except title  from it’s prior location to here right after LWMROO and included a redirect.))
    3. (LWMSGK=set to “(LT2MOD last mod LT8K31=2011.12.22(Thu)pst1638) (LT2VER version 0.3) (LT2STA20% complete 1st draft, needs bbcode-to-HTML conversion & completion)”)


  5. (LT2PLN Additional Planned Changes, in order

    1. .

    LT2PLN )

  6. )